The following is a lecture given by His Holiness Jayapataka Swami on May 28th, 1984 in New Orleans, Louisiana. The class begins with a reading from the Srimad-Bhagavatam, 10th Canto, Chapter 8, Verse 6 through 7.
tvaṁ hi brahma-vidāṁ śreṣṭhaḥ
Devotees: tvaṁ hi brahma-vidāṁ śreṣṭhaḥ
Jayapataka Swami: saṁskārān kartum arhasi
Devotees: saṁskārān kartum arhasi
Jayapataka Swami: bālayor anayor nṝṇāṁ
Devotees: bālayor anayor nṝṇāṁ
Jayapataka Swami: janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ
Devotees: janmanā brāhmaṇo guruḥ
Translation by His Divine Grace, Srila Abhayacarana Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada:
My lord, you are the best of the brāhmaṇas, especially because you are fully aware of the jyotiḥ-śāstra, the astrological science. Therefore you are naturally the spiritual master of every human being. This being so, since you have kindly come to my house, kindly execute the reformatory activities for my two sons.
Translation with repetition:
Devotees: My lord
Jayapataka Swami: are the best of the brāhmaṇas
Devotees: are the best of the brāhmaṇas
Jayapataka Swami: especially because you are fully aware
Devotees: especially because you are fully aware
Jayapataka Swami: of the jyotiḥ-śāstra, the astrological science.
Devotees: of the jyotiḥ-śāstra, the astrological science.
Jayapataka Swami: Therefore you are naturally the spiritual master
Devotees: Therefore you are naturally the spiritual master
Jayapataka Swami: of every human being.
Devotees: of every human being.
Jayapataka Swami: This being so,
Devotees: This being so,
Jayapataka Swami: since you have kindly come to my house,
Devotees: since you have kindly come to my house,
Jayapataka Swami: kindly execute
Devotees: kindly execute
Jayapataka Swami: the reformatory activities
Devotees: the reformatory activities
Jayapataka Swami: for my two sons.
Devotees: for my two sons.
Purport by Srila Prabhupada:
The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, says in Bhagavad-gītā (4.13), cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ: the four varṇas — brāhmaṇa, kṣatriya, vaiśya and śūdra — must be present in society. The brāhmaṇas are required for the guidance of the whole society. If there is no such institution as varṇāśrama-dharma and if human society has no such guide as the brāhmaṇa, human society will be hellish. In Kali-yuga, especially at the present moment, there is no such thing as a real brāhmaṇa, and therefore society is in a chaotic condition. Formerly there were qualified brāhmaṇas, but at present, although there are certainly persons who think themselves brāhmaṇas, they actually have no ability to guide society. The Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is therefore very much eager to reintroduce the varṇāśrama system into human society so that those who are bewildered or less intelligent will be able to take guidance from qualified brāhmaṇas.
Brāhmaṇa means Vaiṣṇava. After one becomes a brāhmaṇa, the next stage of development in human society is to become a Vaiṣṇava. People in general must be guided to the destination or goal of life, and therefore they must understand Viṣṇu, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The whole system of Vedic knowledge is based on this principle, but people have lost the clue (na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇum), and they are simply pursuing sense gratification, with the risk of gliding down to a lower grade of life (mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani). It doesn’t matter whether one is born a brāhmaṇa or not. No one is born a brāhmaṇa; everyone is born a śūdra. But by the guidance of a brāhmaṇa and by saṁskāra, one can become dvija, twice-born, and then gradually become a brāhmaṇa. Brāhmaṇism is not a system meant to create a monopoly for a particular class of men. Everyone should be educated so as to become a brāhmaṇa. At least there must be an opportunity to allow everyone to attain the destination of life. Regardless of whether one is born in a brāhmaṇa family, a kṣatriya family or a śūdra family, one may be guided by a proper brāhmaṇa and be promoted to the highest platform of being a Vaiṣṇava. Thus the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement affords an opportunity to develop the right destiny for human society. Nanda Mahārāja took advantage of the opportunity of Garga Muni’s presence by requesting him to perform the necessary reformatory activities for his sons to guide Them toward the destination of life.
Thus end the Bhaktivedanta Purports of the Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 10, Chapter 8, Text 7, the Chapter entitled, Lord Krishna Shows the Universal Form.
So today, in society, there is an emergency situation. The bottom line for civilization to be considered civilized is that they should at least follow varnashama system, and of course the perfection of civilization is when they are actually God Conscious, completely. But for both of these purposes Brahmanas are essential. Brahmana is both someone who practices sattvika, very pure living standards, and who is always engaged in instructing others. In this way, the brahmanas, they’re moving independent from the other material activities of the society, simply for the welfare of the people at large.
Actually yesterday on the radio show somebody asked a question, something about, “Are you dependent on society? If it wasn’t for the hard-working people, where would you be?” Something like that. I never got a chance to answer that.
The MC commentator ended the show at that time. Actually the brahmanas they have the right to not work. They have the right to beg or to get their income from the people directly because they are filling a service to the society in general. They are providing spiritual education, they are providing opportunity for people to become God conscious. Of course Srila Prabhupada never liked the idea of simply asking for something and giving nothing in return, therefore he always wanted us, he preferred, if when we ask for something if we can always give something back. Which would be beneficial to that person. In this way, people would not consider that they are not getting anything for what they are giving, or at least that society in general would get back more than whatever they gave. Because they are giving something material, and they are getting something which is priceless, beyond the value of calculation, something which is spiritual, which is eternal.
So Prabhupada, he started the program of book distribution. In India especially people have taken advantage by begging. They don’t give anything, they just take. It is not unusual to find a man and his wife wearing saffron in Bengal, chanting door to door, and begging for money. First of all no one should wear saffron unless they are in the renounced 3 orders of live. Three austere orders or whatever you call it. I guess everyone’s austere, but Brahmachari, Vanaprasta and Sannyasa. So Bhaktivinode Thakur he made a little jingle which describes this:
golay mala, nakera tilaka,
piche ache sundara bala
‘Little tilak on his nose and uh… Beads on his neck, tilak oh his nose, behind him his wife goes… little… his girlfriend goes, it’s actually, sundar bala. These are all followers of kali yuga.”
That… Lord Caitanya, he never discouraged anyone from being a grhastha, from being a Brahmana from being… whatever they were, presenting themselves as that. But he was definitely against someone presenting himself as something he was not. And Bhaktivinoda Thakura began this tradition where he didn’t want to, he wanted to show something, he didn’t want to be misunderstood, so Prabhupada he took that to practice by encouraging us to give out transcendental literature and prasadam. To be visibly providing services for the people. He said the Krishna Conscious devotees should be known as the most upright honest people in society as providing a spiritual service. That was his actual intention, that’s what we wanted. Because how can a preacher preach if the people don’t have respect or faith in him?
Gargamuni came he was immediately accepted by Nanda Maharaja, he was renowned, he was an expert in Brahminical sciences, therefore whatever he said they would accept it as something very authoritative and they would try to live by his instructions. This type of faith is necessary for a preacher to have a good affect. How can you preach to someone and have full effectiveness if the person, in every thought, every word is thinking “Whether this person is a cheater or not, whether this person is trying to rip me off or not.” One has to establish a relationship of faith where a person is able to put confidence in the person who is preaching to them. That is idea. That is actually where we want to go to. So Srila Prabhupada said the solution is that people should read our books, and of course we should have a good standard of behavior.
Another point here of course, when a Brahmana is often they would know the astrological science so people would naturally what is my future, what’s a… what’s the situation hold for me? Then, well by astrological calculations they could give them some advice. You’re this kind of person and this is your situation, and that would also help that person, then naturally they would give advice and help their life become more Krishna conscious, more God conscious at the same time. But it was a good avenue to attract the people. People naturally were very interested. Everyone’s interested to know about their future. So, immediately gave something to discuss. Once your talking to a person they start to open up and they would also tell them how to apply this into their life.
Because the Brahmana was actually a well-wisher, because he didn’t have a high overhead… by nature a Brahmana was very simple, was very truthful, austere, religious, clean, so the Brahmana was… is not a big burden on society at all because he lives very simply. Even when Canakya pandit was offered to be the prime minister of the entire empire of northern india about… Chandra gupta was 2-3000 years ago. at that time, um, he refused to live in a palace. He was provided, as a Prime Minister he could have a big palace, he refused it he said “No, as a Brahmana I don’t want to live in your palace, or any other palace, I want to live in a grass hut.” So outside of the palace compound he constructed a grass hut and he lived there, and he wouldn’t take any salary. He said “I don’t want to be a paid man, I’m working volundarily, If I get any donation I may accept it.” This is the nature of brahminical culture, not to be independent.
As soon as you’re dependant on someone, just like the politicians, they are trying to satisfy the people. Even the ksatriya wasn’t supposed to be dependant. He was supposed to… its not a popular thing, he’s supposed to follow the advice of the scriptures and the brahmanas and naturally the people would become satisfied because society would be well-organized. The people would have enough food, shelter, clothing, and spiritual facility. So when the Brahminical culture broke down when the Brahmanas started to consider themselves an elite cast, and they started to envy the others. So the Ksatriyas became more selfish and greedy without proper guidance from brahminical culture. In this way the whole vedic culture basically fell apart. It didn’t completely fall apart but it started to disintegrate to the extent that all of the… that no emperor could… was powerful enough to maintain the entire India as one empire.
There was many small kings and several, 2-3 emperors, and so the Moguls or the Persians and Arabian hordes, they were able to run over Western India first and they were able to conquer large parts of Northern India initially, although South India was able to keep them out for a long time, finally about 400-500… about 400 years ago they were able to make inroads to South India. Then the British came, but South India and Orissa… Orissa practically… except for parts of northern Orissa, most of Orissa was never under Mohammedan rule, was never under British rule until later. Similarly…
Sometimes people critizise “Well, Maharaja Prataparudra, he was a Vaisnava. This is uh… somehow this weakens a monarch or weakens a person.” But, uh, Prataparudra was more effective keeping out the Mohammadens from Orissa, the Mogul Badshahs were trying to attack him, practically speaking he was never conquered. He may not have been an aggressor, he did not go out and conquer vast areas of new land at that period of time, but he didn’t give up any land. He was very effective, and similarly Orisa was… and the other Vaisnava king who built Tirupati temple who was in South India, Krishna Deva Raya. He was also during the time of Lord Caitanya. His was… There were travels who were from Portugal, from Italy, who have independently recorded visiting his kingdom and the descriptions they gave were incredible, were fantastic. How opulent it was, all subkings would give 1/3 their taxes to the emperor. That was the system, and they would give a fixed number of soldiers, and with military things every year, and the emperor therefore he had a bigger army and if… the kings had their own army, but if they had any crises the emperor could come and support. This was the system.
So his kingdom, Deva Raya… Krishna Deva Raya kingdom went the whole total South India, Andhra Pradesh, uh, his capital was the… Hampi right down to the tip. Right up to Godvari, right up to Ramananda raya and from Ramandanda raya up was Prataparudra. So in the time of Lord Caitanya these Vaisnava kings were able to protect themselves very effectively and they had… so that’s not a valid criticism. It’s when people become corrupt, when they become overly materialistic, or if they become impersonalistic, that’s when they become uh, they want to give everything up and they want to fade away to the Brahman so that’s when they start to become less useful for fulfilling their duty.
So the actual need is for people to be assigned their responsibility.. what is the rule of the varnashrama system. Is that according to a person’s work, he should act in a particular way. There’s already people who are teachers, adminstrators, businessmen and laborers. But the Varnasrama system gives with each category certain inherent responsibilities; for instance, a teacher is also supposed to have impeccable character. Recently in the newspaper it gave how one high school teacher, I forget where it was, how he was accused of having relationships with his students of both sexes, and uh, there was a whole… there was some special somewhere, child abuse, and many of the schoolteachers, they have abused their position in this way.
This is the whole problem.
You have a schoolteachers, he is one of the natural leaders of society. Says the king, the parent, the schoolteacher… the politician, the parent and the schoolteacher they are the natural leaders of society because the teachers they are going to train the children, they are going to create the future citizens of the country so teachers… teaching is one of the duties of a Brahmana, so he is supposed to have an impeccable character. He is supposed to be almost like a spiritual master in one sense. He is a spiritual master at least he is their… their master in terms of teaching master and he should be spiritually and materially impeccable in his character. Similarly a politician he is also supposed to have certain rules, to act in a certain way.
This is very scientifically made so they know what is their duty to society is and so that they act in such a way that they actually fulfill their duties. If someone is an administrator he is supposed to be fearless, he is supposed to be courageous, he is supposed to be able to go out. Just like in… we… Just like in Mayapur we were attacked, here were the policeman, we brought them, we said “Kindly let the…” one devotee lived outside in the house. He’s a grihasta, he lived down about a half a mile, and he saw that we were attacked. He went to get the police. He said “Kindly I’ll take you my bicycle.”
“We won’t go by bicycle.”
When they got near the temple the battle was still going on. They all had rifles, they said “Alright, we should go.” They said “Wait let it cool down. We don’t want to risk our lives.” They’re not Ksatriya; they’re Sudras. Ksatriyas, they don’t run away from a battle, they are not considering, they are not cowards.
So this is the problem, we have policeman or we have politicians who take position, but they should have the quality of then being ready to sacrifice their life for the cause of the nation, for the cause of fulfilling their duty. If their only purpose is to fatten their pockets, then what is the use? So this type of system that, if a person has a particular occupational duty, he should also have certain qualities, and he should act with certain responsibilities. Otherwise, even though he is doing that occupation he won’t be perfected and the society will be disorderly, and that’s exactly whats happening today.
Even we have these categories of people, because the teachers don’t have a high character, because the… the uh, political leaders don’t have that type of courage in many cases or that type of integrity even they’re allowed to take remuneration for what they do, but then they should protect the citizens who are helpless without the administration taking the active role as a protector. Similarly the buisinessmen, they have a duty to provide economic strength for the entire society, they are considered the stomach. If the vaisya, the businessmen are able to create a very strong economic base then the society is very strong. But if they create the Chambers of Commerce and then think how to manipulate the market so the prices go up artificially and the people are therefore… they may become wealthy but the people become artificially weakened that’s not a proper balance. Better they’re to work under a certain system. But that can only happen if the administration and the brahmanas are strong. In this way the checks and balances are there if everybody fulfills, and that depends on strong spiritual guides.
So actually this Krishna Conscious movement is creating… is there especially to train up Brahmanas. We are having the shaved head and the sikha and (inaudible) because this is the naturally the insignia of Brahmana. Yesterday after the program one Indian was there, he is a Banerjee, Banerjee, Vanopadhyaya, one of the four aristocratic Brahminical families of India, he said “You are all the real Brahmanas. We are in name Brahmana, but we are not able to do much. But you are actually the Brahmanas” and this you’ll hear in many places. Of course there are some very bigoted kind of caste Brahmanas who don’t want to accept anyone who is not a born Brahmana, but in general the modern Brahmanas of today they can see what Krishna Consciousness is doing. You don’t have to put the words in their mouth. They will spontaneously say, “You are practicing Brahminical culture.” Because a Vaisnava is spontaneously, automatically a Brahmana.
The next stage from Brahmana is Vaisnava. So what our temples are are factories for producing and training Brahmanas. What is a Brahmana? Brahmana means that he is thinking – especially a vaisnava – if someone is para duhkha duhkhi, he is considering how to help this mislead society, how to help the people who are suffering in illusion to regain their natural position as devotees of Krishna. Even other people, they may remain in their position as laborers, but the Brahmanas, they’re there to train them up how to lead their life. Just like Gargamuni, he’s going to tell Nanda Maharaja so many things.
Of course Nanda Maharaj is already trained up. But today people are completely in illusion. So that’s why we have a high standard which we have to maintain in our temples. We’re Brahmanas. Prabhupada said, “I’ve done half the work. The next half is varnasrama.” That means to train up the resident society to act in their particular occupational duties in devotional service. Contributing service to Krishna according to their capabilities, and of course we have to go on recruiting more people to be Brahmanas.
Sometimes we hear someone say “I worked for the Krishna Consciousness movement for seven years, what have I got?” that person is not a Brahmana at all. A Brahmana is not trying to get anything; he’s trying to serve. That is why a Brahmana can take a donation and it doesn’t have any karma. Because a Brahmana won’t keep it for himself, immediately he gives it to Krishna and uses it for uplifting others. Uses it to build a temple for people’s spiritual use or purchasing books, to purchase books, to give books to people who are interested in reading the books, for other type of work. For distributing prasadam, for building a Krishna Conscious farm, to protect the cows and to provide shelter for people to come who are not able to live in the city, or not ideally suited for living in a city, but who can practice God Consciousness in that type of a natural situation. So that is what we want.
We want the favor of Krishna. We want people that are social workers. I was uh… The first time I went to Thailand with Rupanuga Prabhu and Balavanta, they went there. They wanted to start a program for ser… the… distributing prasadam to the Cambodian refugees. So we went there. We found that they were already late. They thought… they had… they were months late. There we literally fifty volunteer organizations there from every country, name shape OXFAM, REFAM whatever, SIDA, UNICEF, PERITEX, CARE, just… a flood of them. They begged, they approached them “Please have prasadam distribution for us. We can’t stand this place. We are completely bored. The food here stinks. Meanwhile if you open up a prasadam restaurant we will be very happy.” They all go there, they go there for 3-4 months, they get bored stiff after the first week, and they are just waiting to go back home. When they go back they’re heroes. They’ve served the Cam… But when they are there, they are miserable. But you can see the devotees, when they are distributing prasadam, doing a ratha-yatra, distributing books or their doing preaching they are blissful. They are ecstatic because they are doing it knowing it… directly its pleasing to Krishna, and they have that… developed that Brahminical culture where they actually have compassion for others. Here they have a sentiment as soon as they get there they see the sick people they do it but it’s… they’re just unhappy.
The whole night they just… they want to have their parties, it’s just like it’s some kind of a.. it’s a very strange combination. They have a touch of goodness in them but, because of their not being trained up in Brahminical culture its, uh… its very unnatural for them to maintain that kind of attitude for more than a couple weeks. They have to mix it with a lot of sense gratification, and there’s no sense gratification on the Cambodian border, and therefore they… they want to go back to Bangkok or something… it’s just… it’s a unusual situation. They want to go back to where they came from pretty fast.
So this is what is actually needed. A person cannot be a effective preacher without developing this brahminical standard, therefore we need to follow the four regulative principles, chant Hare Krishna every day, study the literatures, know what we’re giving the people, and be actively engaged in giving out the mercy of Lord Caitanya. That is actual pure Brahmana Vaisnava activity. When somebody falls down from the Brahminical standard, then they can think “What am I doing this for?” and if someone is in the Brahminical attitude, if they are actually understanding what is the purpose of life, and they want to help others to achieve that purpose of life, then they don’t have to look anywhere else for their satisfaction. That itself is the most fulfilling, especially when one is awakened to pure devotional service and one is understanding this is the desire of Lord Caitanya. This is actually what He wants. Then one can experience the highest ecstasies of Krishna Consciousness.
Srila Prabhupada explained we are not to imitate Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya, He sat around and talked about Krishna Lila with His intimate associates. He was enjoying those pastimes of Krishna, relishing them… But He is Krishna! That’s his position! But we are the servants of the servants of the servants of Krishna. Our position is to serve the Lord... Actually we are the servants of the servants of the servants of Mahaprahu. Lord Caitanya wanted that that fallen people given the opportunity to taste that nectar of life that is God consciousness. So all of the associates after Lord Caitanya left, they were all engaged in different kinds of activities, writing literatures or distributing literatures. Narottam dasa Thakura, he wrote a poem, four liner, where. I can’t remember the Bengali right now… or the Sanskrit, but he basically said that Lord Caitanya has varieties of energies. Some of those energies are engaged in writing transcendental literatures, and other energies are engaged in distributing them. Like Srinivasacarya. He mentioned writing, like Rupa and Sanatana.
So the Six Gosvamis, they wrote transcendental literatures that even to this day and for the next 1000 millenniums they are going to be the standard of pure devotional service. Similarly, Srinivasacarya Syamananda Pandit, they took those literatures and they distributed and they preached on them. They established the authority that, Caitanya-Caritamrta, Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, this is the proper understanding of the purpose of the Srimad-Bhagavatam, this is where the Srimad-Bhagavatam is leading one. This is the method of how to practice in this Kali-yuga, Krishna Consciousness.
But everyone is a team. Everyone living in the temple is a part of this Brahminical team to disseminate Krishna consciousness to the society at large. When people are going out and distributing books and someone else is cooking for them. It’s not that that person is not engaged in the preaching activity. He is part of the team and actually that attitude should be adopted by everyone. This is… our purpose is for giving out Krishna consciousness to the society at large. If they are having difficulty in assuming that then sometimes they should go out on harinam or go on some activity just to see how the people in the world are needing this Krishna consciousness and to get in that attitude. But everyone should feel a part of the preaching mission.
There is a special idea of having these temples and having the communities is for disseminating Krishna consciousness to the people at large. So no one should ever doubt what is the purpose, that the purpose of the activity is for disseminating. That is our actual gain. That is what we should take as our… Because Srila Prabhupada, he said “If we give Krishna Consciousness and if our purpose is to please Krishna then we go to Krishna, but if we have some other purpose, then, Krishna may give us that… He may fulfill that particular desire, but they don’t get Krishna.” If someone wants some material thing in exchange for this devotional service, foolish in one sense, of course you can get it, Krishna will give. One should still do devotional service, no doubt. It’s said,
akāmaḥ sarva-kāmo vā
yajeta puruṣaṁ param
But it’s like, more mundane example, if you go to a multi-millionaire and you’re sitting in his office, he says “I can… Alright, what do you want?”, and you ask him “Give me some ashes from your ashtray.” What is the use of that? You can get that anywhere. If you try to go to the trouble of approaching someone big, at least then you can ask something significant. Like in India, the big multi-millionaires, they are not approached to donate a bag a rice. They’re cultivated and they’re approached to give some significant contribution for building a temple, or for doing something.
One, uh, Mr. Birla came to visit our temple. At the same time, the Secretary of the Communist Party of India was there, and one of the biggest newspaper reporters also showed up. So, he saw that the biggest industrialist is here. Down the hall is the biggest Communist. They’re both staying in the same Hare Krishna Guesthouse in Mayapur. So then he asked the Communist that, “Well what are you doing here? Here the capitalists are here.”
He said, “No this is a place for everyone. They’re nice people. It’s alright.”
Then he went to the capitalist and said, “What are you doing here?”
And he said, “Well it’s a place of God. Very nice atmosphere. We come here.” He said.
So then, when the… Mr. Birla got back home, he said, “I think you know that I liked your temple very much, liked the activities. Here’s a small token of my appreciation, gave a 25,000 rupee donation.
Jayapataka Swami: (inaudible) He knew we were going to be visiting anyways, so… Uh, but that kind of donation, it shows his sincere appreciation and that’s the kind of thing that uh… that’s what a Vaisya should do. But this is a type of cultivation. People in general, they can appreciate, “Oh, here’s something which is being done…” So the point is if we had any desire for material that we take it like that… There was a point. We ask him for ashes, what’s the use? A person like that, even without asking he’ll give you 25,000. Even without asking, what to speak if you ask him, there are people who can contribute in dollars, easily they can contribute, 5, 10, 20, 30,000 dollars at a time, but it takes years of cultivation sometimes before they have that amount of faith.
It’s not that the first time they come, we sign them up and… they’ll give five dollars. But in any case, if you’re going to ask them for something, what’s the use of asking for something insignificant? If you’re going to ask for something, then ask for something which is suitable to their uh, capacity. So when you’re serving Krishna, why ask Him for something material, which you can get anywhere. You can even get it, just you know with a little material karma, what to speak…
Get from Krishna, what He really has to offer. That is His eternal devotional service. That is the actual gain. That’s what it means to be a Brahmana Vaisnava is to understand what is the actual goal of life. Aham brahmasmi is Brahmana. I’m not this body; I’m spirit soul. I’m a part of Brahman, and a Vaisnava means jivera svarupa haya nityera krsna dasa. I’m the eternal servant of Krishna.
Hare Krishna Hare Krishna
Krishna Krishna Hare Hare
Hare Rama Hare Rama
Rama Rama Hare Hare
Question: Generally the people in India, are they fooled by the charlatan sannyasis and renunciates?
Jayapataka Swami: It’s the cheaters and the cheated.
Comment: But they threw out Rajneesh.
Jayapataka Swami: He wasn’t offering them anything but something they didn’t want. They have some morality in India. He was just immoral. I mean, at least the normal sadhus offer, “Well, if you touch my feet, or other… give some worship, you can have a big family, or you can have a lot of material facility.” Or “Do whatever you want.” Type of thing. But then Rajneesh was actively promoting immoral activities. Just too much.
Comment: Orgies and stuff in the name of some kind of mission.
Question: How is it that Orissa was kept uh, strong, you know, in the history of a Vaisnava kings, the Moslems didn’t conquer it, now it’s so poor, and Gujarat, which was conquered by Moslems, now it’s so rich?
Jayapataka Swami: Because the Orisans gave the biggest, the hardest time to the English to take over. They were like the last to go, and even after the British took over, the Orissans, they just don’t like to be controlled…
I don’t know who tied this knot here, but he could undue it, but it’s not convenient for class.
So, the British purposely didn’t develop Orissa. They kept the people really down. There’s no industry there. Zero industry. There’s… They just didn’t… they just… but they developed big cotton mills… they developed (inaudible) tobacco, cotton, so because of that… plus the Orissans are good Brahmanas and Ksatriyas. I don’t really know how developed their Vaisyasa are. But the Rajasthanis and Gujaratis Vaisyas are very developed. Bengal and Orissa’s Brahmana’s are very famous all over India, but uh, their Vaisyas are not like super famous. I mean, they have… of all of them, the Suvarna Vanikas are the most together Vaisyas of Bengal, and we’ve got sadhus but I mean… they’re alright… I mean… but they’re not proven to be as effective uh, a Vaisya as uh, the uh, Marwari Vaisyas, Agarwalla, or as these uh…
Jayapataka Swami: Yeah. These are Gujaratis are pretty industries people. They’ve gone all over the world, and… and were very effective. Sindhis have shown some pretty good acumen and different… So right now, the world is economic competition. But they were kept back by the British. Everyone knows that. But that was the British’s thing. “If you cooperate with us, we’ll cooperate with you.” And the… the Orissans didn’t cooperate so… the Bengalis did, so they had the Capital in Calcutta.
Comment: His point was that, the Moguls, how did they manage to take Gujarat, being so religious and Vaisnava?
Jayapataka Swami: That wasn’t his question.
Comment: Its said that the Ksatriyas, when they die in battle, they go to heaven planets. Now, some Ksatriyas were battling, they were on the right side’s army, some others were on the wrong side. (inaudible) …some fighting against them. They fought (inaudible)
Jayapataka Swami: The point is that, these Ksatriyas… everybody thinks they’re right. (laughter) So, when they can… everyone told them they weren’t right, but they were considering that they were right, and they had reasons, which were weren’t right, but… so then only way it could be decided was by going to war, but they were going and fighting according to the principles of the Vedas, so that’s different than a thief robbing in the night, and then you kill the thief and he’s fighting with you, he dies, that’s not Ksatriya, but following the religious principle, you have a dispute… They think… you’re right. You think you’re right. They think they’re right. So, who’s to say exactly who’s right? You know. Ultimately, the Brahmanas, they give their opinion, but uh, you know, it gets political, so. In some cases, uh, they… if they’re following the… my understanding is that if they’re following the Vedic system and they’re fighting according to the Vedic rules and if they die in that type of… you know, if they die, in a… in a… in a battle, like that, that was considered uh, enough. They run away, and they get shot in the back, or something, they’re not going to… if they die face forward in the battle.
Comment: People ask us sometimes. They ask about (inaudible) Iraq, Korean War, (inaudible)
Jayapataka Swami: Well they’re not going to get liberation. They’re certainly in material consciousness, but that’s a type of piety. That kind of an integrity, the demigods can appreciate to some extent. Of course, they’re Mlecchas, Yavanas, cow-killers. I mean, there’s… especially applied for Ksatriyas, but whether it applies for everyone in a battle, whether it applies for Yavanas in a battle, or Mlecchas in a battle…
Question: Well, in the 12th Chapter, does it mention that anywhere?
Comment: Yeah, it mentions that one can even do… you see, if he has a concept like his country is God, he works in that direction, then Krishna won’t accept. Krishna says “If you can’t surrender to Me, work for Me, and in the Purports there, that 12.7 Prabhupada describes that even like social work with the selfless dedication, that will gradually advance one till he comes to knowledge.
Jayapataka Swami: The point is the Ksatriya sees that he’s doing his duty for… to God. That this is his duty. This duty is a law, which is handed down by God so that even in their dying like that, even though it definitely has some material motivation, but there’s also a connection with… with Krishna. So, definitely they’re getting a more glorious… by dying in the battle for their… for their… for God and their country, they’re going to get a better reaction, because the point is, even if they commit so many sinful activities, that itself is purifying. I mean, they’ve given their life.
Just like a man gets hung, he gets to go to svarga, to heavenly planet after getting hung, even he’s a murderer because he’s considered absolved. He gets… he gets his karmas, shwip, wiped out for that. I don’t know how high up he goes, but he gets absolved from that. So similarly, if a person is dying in a battle like that, that’s uh, purifying. But I know that He didn’t want to fight with the Yavanas. “Tell the Yavana king I don’t want to fight Him.”
The more that they’re God conscious, you’ll get a… it’s the best way for someone like that to go.
Comment: I heard that the radio show was very very nice. In my lowly opinion, it sound like uh, you were going in a like needle, and coming out like a house. Because… (inaudible) …some Swami from India, uh Mayapur, and then as it went along, the points became bigger, and it seemed to be very effective. But I noticed also that the commentator, Joe Cullota, whatever his name is, you could see the importance of… like you were speaking of Bhagavad-gita. Prabhupada’s books. The import… because he presented so… as having studied some Oriental philosophy, some Indian philosophy, but every word out of his mouth was impersonalism, and without Prabhupada’s books that’s what is happening to everybody. Prabhupada’s books are… because I’d read so many books, before I came: All impersonal. Every one.
Jayapataka Swami: Yes. He was talking Zen Buddhism or something. Giving up your ego, and nothingness or something. It seemed too big a subject to relay. I didn’t know how much time I had.
Jayapataka Swami: Prabhupada told one devotee that uh… who’s father owned a factory that he should make his factory Krishna conscious, have his tapes playing, programs. So uh, the point is uh, the uh, especially the Brahmanas would be following all of the principles, and he would try to get everyone to follow all the principles, at least, as many as possible, and yes, people would take up the different occupations. Definitely there would be an Army, everything. In this way, it’s essential that we have qualified Brahmanas, people who know the philosophy who can uh, dissolve the people’s doubts. Of course, if the whole world becomes Krishna conscious, then uh, you still need an army just to keep out the thieves and rogues, but there’s always going to be some rogues, there’s always going to be some anti-social elements. You’re going to need a police force and an Army in this world.
Even in Svarga, they have their full Army. Even the heavenly planets they have an Army, so what to speak of here. But obviously, it wouldn’t be… it would be less… it wouldn’t be over done to the extent that it is today, if there’s no conflict. The one, when I was leaving the radio show, the person after me was a schoolteacher, Glen something. He said, “Well, if everybody had one idea…” And he said, “Or if people were like this…” Joe Culotta said, “If people were like this, then there’d be no wars in the world.”
He said, “Well, if everybody had one idea, there’d be no war.” That was his intellectual adjustment. That was… the thing is there are some places you can get islands. You can make it your own country. But then if you do that, then… the nature is you see, then if you’re your own country, then who protects you. There’s pirates in most places. There’s pirates and they’ll just come and rob you and they have the arms, and cannons, and bazookas and all kind of stuff.
So, if you’re your own country that means that there’s… you know, then you got to have your Army, you got to have your defense, you have to have everything. That’s why a lot of these small countries are like called Protectorates. They’re under you know, bigger like Britain, or Engl… or America or something. Bhutan has got a defense agreement with India. So, if you have a country, you got to have an Army, at least to defend yourself from... If you don’t you’re just like open prey. There, people come and take advantage.
Question: Can the devotees preach in outer space?
Jayapataka Swami: Some people are there, we’ve heard. Some of the devotees are there. (laughter) I heard someone said some devotee was spaced out. (laughter) Let’s do first things first. We’re worrying about outer space. We haven’t even got the inner space yet. If a person really wants to… if preaching in a civilized society is too difficult, well then there’s also… there’s a lot of tribal people in the world. That’s where the Christians go. (laughter) In India, different places.
The Pope just visited New Guinea, and made a big inroads preaching to the aborigines and headhunters there, made them all Christians there, carried a big cross. It was a big thing. It’s fairly easy to preach to those people. Of course, maybe Christianity’s easier because they just get them to stop eating human flesh, but they can eat everything else (laughter). But you want to get ‘em to be vegetarian… but I mean there’s other, not so far gone tribals, and they’re very simple people. You can preach to them. Many people think that they’re in outer space.
In the future, we’ll go to other planets, no doubt. I don’t know about the space in between them. The uh… there are of course, different levels in between where Yaksas and others live. So, we can go and preach there also. But normally to do that, you have to have a body which is suitable for those environments. Since right now, Krishna’s given us a body which is suitable for this environment, and this body only lasts 60, 70, 80 years anyway, so we should take the… make the best use of this bargain, and preach here, and then subsequently, in our next birth, we’ll have opportunity, if we have a keen desire to preach in other places, we could take birth there and preach there.
Some liberated souls, they return back to Krishna, and then preach again, other places.
Devotees: Hare Krishna!
Devotee: Hare Krishna Srila Acaryapada!
Transcribed by Jagannatha dasa Brahmacari
Harshavardhan Sanekommu Contributed to this Transcript